Seamless track skipping file is TOO BIG!

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Pilot
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Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:51 pm

Seamless track skipping file is TOO BIG!

Post by Pilot »

By using Cues, I've split one long file in 4 tracks; I exported them, and it works! They blend in seamlessly, everything's great, except the file size. Each 8-minute track is over 80MB in size, which is just ridiculous if I wanted to put them on a CD.

I tried compressing them with an Audio Converter, which worked, but then the tracks weren't gapless anymore! I've tried changing the default saving format to 128 kbps MP3, but the gaps are there too!

So I figured out that I need to use the "Use CD compatible wave format and alignment" button so that it works; but how can I do this without having gigantic file sizes?

Help!
holtram
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:29 pm

Post by holtram »

I'm possibly doing the math wrong here, but 80 mb each for 4 tracks is no problem for burning to a CD. A CD will generally hold 700 mb of data and wav files do tend to be big (at least when compared to MP3). You're only talking about 320 mb of data.

I would just say that you are doing everything correctly and the CD should work out just fine...
Pilot
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Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:51 pm

Post by Pilot »

True, it'll work on a CD; I just don't understand how you can rip factory CD's tracks and still retain the seamless skipping (without the huge file sizes). I guess if I were to just burn it on a CD and listen to it from there, I'll be okay
holtram
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:29 pm

Post by holtram »

True, you can rip with seamless skipping if ripping into wav format which will still be large files.

However if you are ripping into mp3 format (smaller files) there will always be a slight pause between each track I think due to information stored in the mp3 and other technical stuff.

There are some real experts who can explain it better than I. There might be smaller formats which allow seamless ripping (APE? Ogg Vorbis?) - not formats that I ever use or am familiar with.

Any of the real technofiles here have some info to help before my ignorance becomes too obvious??
DougDbug
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Location: Silicon Valley

Post by DougDbug »

Audio CDs and WAV files use uncompressed PCM (Pulse Code Modulation). That isn't as complicated as it sounds... For CDs, the "height" of the "wave" is sampled and stored 44,100 times per second. This is the simplest way to store audio data. Most audio editing programs will de-compress MP3s (and other formats) before editing. (In fact, most editing requires it.)

CDs are 16 bits, so that's two bytes. Finally, since it's stereo, that makes 4 bytes per stereo sample. 4 x 44,100 = 176.4k bytes per second. (Which works out to around 1MB per minute.)

All of the common compression techniques are "lossy". This means they actually throw-away data during the compression process. (The compression algorithm attempts to throw-away the least important data.) The file size of a compressed wave is determined by the bitrate and it's playing-time. The bitrate is measured in kbps (kilobits per second), and that can be simply scaled-up to bytes per minute.
I tried compressing them with an Audio Converter, which worked, but then the tracks weren't gapless anymore! I've tried changing the default saving format to 128 kbps MP3, but the gaps are there too!

So I figured out that I need to use the "Use CD compatible wave format and alignment" button so that it works; but how can I do this without having gigantic file sizes?
If you save the "gapless" WAV file, and then convert it to MP3, it should be OK... Although, I'm not sure why you're getting gaps in the first place... :?
True, it'll work on a CD; I just don't understand how you can rip factory CD's tracks and still retain the seamless skipping (without the huge file sizes). I guess if I were to just burn it on a CD and listen to it from there, I'll be okay
If your end-goal is a standard audio CD, then you should skip the compression. The conversions take time and you loose audio quality with each compression step. (You can convert back-and-forth between Audio CD and WAV as many times as you want, and you won't affect the underlying PCM data.)
Pilot
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:51 pm

Post by Pilot »

DougDbug wrote:Audio CDs and WAV files use uncompressed PCM (Pulse Code Modulation). That isn't as complicated as it sounds... For CDs, the "height" of the "wave" is sampled and stored 44,100 times per second. This is the simplest way to store audio data. Most audio editing programs will de-compress MP3s (and other formats) before editing. (In fact, most editing requires it.)

CDs are 16 bits, so that's two bytes. Finally, since it's stereo, that makes 4 bytes per stereo sample. 4 x 44,100 = 176.4k bytes per second. (Which works out to around 1MB per minute.)

All of the common compression techniques are "lossy". This means they actually throw-away data during the compression process. (The compression algorithm attempts to throw-away the least important data.) The file size of a compressed wave is determined by the bitrate and it's playing-time. The bitrate is measured in kbps (kilobits per second), and that can be simply scaled-up to bytes per minute.
I tried compressing them with an Audio Converter, which worked, but then the tracks weren't gapless anymore! I've tried changing the default saving format to 128 kbps MP3, but the gaps are there too!

So I figured out that I need to use the "Use CD compatible wave format and alignment" button so that it works; but how can I do this without having gigantic file sizes?
If you save the "gapless" WAV file, and then convert it to MP3, it should be OK... Although, I'm not sure why you're getting gaps in the first place... :?
True, it'll work on a CD; I just don't understand how you can rip factory CD's tracks and still retain the seamless skipping (without the huge file sizes). I guess if I were to just burn it on a CD and listen to it from there, I'll be okay
If your end-goal is a standard audio CD, then you should skip the compression. The conversions take time and you loose audio quality with each compression step. (You can convert back-and-forth between Audio CD and WAV as many times as you want, and you won't affect the underlying PCM data.)
I'm not getting any gaps with the .wav; when I convert it to MP3 (so I can send it over the internet, that kinda stuff) I get gaps. It'll work fine on a CD, it'd just be nice if I could get gapless playback without the file size.
GoldWave Inc.
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Re: Seamless track skipping file is TOO BIG!

Post by GoldWave Inc. »

Try using the Ogg Vorbis format. That gives better compression/quality than MP3 and does not cause gaps. You could use FLAC or Lossless WMA if you want to preserve full quality, but that would make the files only about half as large as the uncompressed ones.

Chris
Pilot
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Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:51 pm

Re: Seamless track skipping file is TOO BIG!

Post by Pilot »

GoldWave Inc. wrote:Try using the Ogg Vorbis format. That gives better compression/quality than MP3 and does not cause gaps. You could use FLAC or Lossless WMA if you want to preserve full quality, but that would make the files only about half as large as the uncompressed ones.

Chris
Does Ogg Vorbis work with CDs?
DougDbug
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Location: Silicon Valley

Post by DougDbug »

Does Ogg Vorbis work with CDs?
The OGG format is simply an alternative to the MP3 format, except it's open source so the software developer/vendor doesn't have to pay a royalty.*

You can make an OGG file from a CD.

You can make a standard audio CD from an OGG file
after converting the file back to WAV/PCM.

- Just remember that you won't get an exact bit-for-bit copy of the original CD. In order to do that, you need to use uncompressed WAV files or some sort of lossless compression.

Of course, you can directly save an OGG file (or MP3 file) on a CD. You can play that CD on a computer if it has the OGG codec installed. Some portable MP3 players can play OGG files. You cannot play that CD on a regular audio CD player.


* The LAME MP3 encoder is open source too, but if you distribute an MP3 codec, you are supposed to pay a royalty. Windows comes with a licensed MP3 decoder, but not an MP3 encoder. You may have noticed that GoldWave does not directly distribute the LAME encoder. They simply tell you where to get it.
destruk
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:39 am

Post by destruk »

You're probably resequencing the tracks. In any case to reproduce the cd, seamless and all you might want to just run a 1:1 copy.
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