Phono Preamp to PC

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TinPanFan
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:48 am
Location: Texas

Phono Preamp to PC

Post by TinPanFan »

Would appreciate some advice. I'm about ready to do some vinyl-to-digital transfers but need a new preamp.

Any suggestions for a simple preamp between my Technics last-century turntable and Goldwave on the Windows PC? I used to have a mixer but it disappeared several moves ago, so ...

I assume that a USB input would be best (as opposed to plugging into the sound card) and further suppose that there'll be no conflicts between my USB microphone and the USB preamp. (They'd never be used simultaneously; vinyl transfers and voice recording will always be separate tasks.)

Any ideas will be appreciated.

-- Ed
Tristan
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Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:20 pm
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: Phono Preamp to PC

Post by Tristan »

TinPanFan wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:15 pm
Would appreciate some advice. I'm about ready to do some vinyl-to-digital transfers but need a new preamp.

Any suggestions for a simple preamp between my Technics last-century turntable and Goldwave on the Windows PC? I used to have a mixer but it disappeared several moves ago, so ...

I assume that a USB input would be best (as opposed to plugging into the sound card) and further suppose that there'll be no conflicts between my USB microphone and the USB preamp. (They'd never be used simultaneously; vinyl transfers and voice recording will always be separate tasks.)

Any ideas will be appreciated.

-- Ed
USB wouldn't necessarily be the best choice; it would depend on the quality of the converter in the phono pre. To me, anything under 24-bit-depth is unacceptable in an ADC, and the USB phono pres I've seen have ADC's limited to 16 bits.

So you'd be better off using a separate USB interface for USB connectivity if you want quality components and the headroom 24-bits can give you. I got my Behringer UMC404HD for $75 when I bought it -- totally worth the investment.

That said, the phono pre I can wholeheartedly recommend is the ART DJ Pre II. It is RFI resistant, and has its own gain control. I think there might be a USB version. I'd recommend against getting that one for reasons stated above.
I don't want to read the manual either, but, then, it isn't my problem, is it?
DougDbug
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:33 pm
Location: Silicon Valley

Re: Phono Preamp to PC

Post by DougDbug »

If you have a desktop/tower computer with a regular soundcard you can use the line-input and an analog phono preamp. I've got an old receiver with a built-in phono preamp and that's how I do it. The line-inputs on a regular soundcard are often quite good. As long as you don't get (excessive) noise, the other specs (frequency response and distortion) are usually better than human hearing. And, the noise from the record and preamp usually dominates anyway. (The microphone inputs on a soundcard or laptop are another story... They tend to be noisy, plus they are not compatible with stage/studio mics so they are worthless for any "serious" recording.)

The Behringer UFO202 is an inexpensive USB interface with switchable phono/line inputs but it lacks a recording level control* so if the internal ADC clips you're stuck with the distortion. (I haven't actually heard of that being a problem so the default gain probably leaves enough headroom for most records and most phono cartridges.)

The ART USB Phono Plus does have a recording level control and it's still under $100 USD.

I'm going to disagree with Tristan on the 16/24-bit issue for two reasons: At 16-bits the quantization noise is more than 90dB down whereas the signal-to-noise ratio on a record is maybe 60dB "on a good day". And, the guys who do blind ABX tests have pretty-well demonstrated that nobody can hear the difference between a high-resolution original and a copy downsampled to "CD quality" (16-bits/44.1kHz). In other words, CD quality is better than human hearing. (And obviously, vinyl is worse than human hearing.)



* Actually, the digital recording level isn't THAT critical as long as you avoid clipping. With analog tape you needed a hot signal to overcome the tape noise, but with digital... no tape noise! Tape also tends to soft-clip as you go over 0dB so it was common to go occasionally "into the red". But, analog-to-digital converters hard-clip at exactly 0dB so it's better to leave headroom and adjust the digitally after recording. (I still like to have a knob or fader.)
Last edited by DougDbug on Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DougDbug
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Location: Silicon Valley

Re: Phono Preamp to PC

Post by DougDbug »

FYI - GoldWave has a Noise Reduction filter and a Click/Pop filter, or there are specialized 3rd party applications.

Wave Corrector is a fully-automatic de-clicker and it's now FREE.

I've used Wave Repair ($30 USD) for a long time. It can do an audibly perfect repair on most (but not all) clicks & pops and it offers several repair algorithms. The good and bad is that it's manual so it only "touches" the audio where you identify a defect. But that makes it VERY time consuming and I've spent a full-weekend cleaning up a digitized vinyl file.
TinPanFan
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:48 am
Location: Texas

Re: Phono Preamp to PC

Post by TinPanFan »

Tristan and Doug,

I really appreciate you guys' taking the time to re-educate me (used to do more audio work than I do now, and some skills have faded).

Tristan, thanks for raising the 16/24-bit issue. With my setup I don't think it's crucial, but it's certainly an issue to consider when choosing gear. I assumed, obviously incorrectly, that a USB i/f would be inherently higher quality than sound card analog input. Wrong. Just checked my Soundblaster specs and it turns out the ADC is 24-bit!

Looks like the ART is my choice. Budget is a consideration, so under $70 is nice.

So it's off to Amazon for the preamp, set up the old turntable, haul out the vinyl, and crank up Goldwave!

Thanks again,

-- Ed
Tristan
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:20 pm
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: Phono Preamp to PC

Post by Tristan »

The below is a not-bad place to check out, in case you ever decide to do more equipment shopping and want a broader range of opinion. Gearslutz is mainly for pros and Vinyl Injury regulars trigger too easily, IMO:

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php

T.
I don't want to read the manual either, but, then, it isn't my problem, is it?
iBypass
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:37 am

Re: Phono Preamp to PC

Post by iBypass »

Hello,

I've been archiving vinyl records to digital files since a few years, and over time I tried many devices, setups and different configurations...

Here's my current installation:

> Reloop RP-7000MK2 Turntable + Reloop Vibe Cartridge ;
> ART Pro Audio DJ Pre II Preamp ;
> Mackie ProFX8v2 Mixing Console ;

I record at 16-bit 44,100Hz from the Mackie's console USB OUT to PC (and Goldwave).

The ART DJ Pre II preamp is very impressive for its price tag. I've tried a few more expensive units but came back to the ART Pro Audio every time. That's a very good one.

BTW, recording at 24-bit will NOT make your LPs sound better, by doing so you will only better record the exact same content. Professionals use 24-bit samples in recording and production for headroom, noise floor, and convenience reasons because mixing and mastering may involve literally thousands of effects and operations.

References:

D/A and A/D | Digital Show and Tell (video) :
https://youtu.be/cIQ9IXSUzuM

Why you don't need 24 Bit 192 kHz listening formats :
https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

On top of that, under some circumstances, recording at 24-bit could somehow lead to worse sound quality, here's why... let's say you record at 24-bit but for some reasons you need to convert back to 16-bit for listening and/or compatibility purposes (like burning an audio CD), the converted files (from 24-bit to 16-bit) may very well sound worse than native 16-bit originals.

For the best results possible, make sure to use a good turntable, good cartridge & stylus, a good preamp and premium shielded cables to reduce background noise as much as possible.

You can easily measure your current noise level with Goldwave. Turn all required equipment ON, set everything exactly when recording an LP with sliders up/open but leave the turntable's tonearm on its base and use Goldwave to record about 10 seconds of "silence". Then, TRIM your recording and click on "Maximize" ... your current noise level will be displayed.

Here, with my actual setup, I get -74.25db when recording "nothing" ... which is (in my opinion) pretty good !


Have fun archiving your LPs !

Regards, Daniel ;-)
TinPanFan
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:48 am
Location: Texas

Re: Phono Preamp to PC

Post by TinPanFan »

Thanks to everyone who took the time (and expended the effort) to reply. I now have some great advice, and with my to-be-purchased ART preamp, I'm ready to go.

Thanks again! This is quite a community!
Tristan
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:20 pm
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: Phono Preamp to PC

Post by Tristan »

iBypass wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:10 pm
On top of that, under some circumstances, recording at 24-bit could somehow lead to worse sound quality, here's why... let's say you record at 24-bit but for some reasons you need to convert back to 16-bit for listening and/or compatibility purposes (like burning an audio CD), the converted files (from 24-bit to 16-bit) may very well sound worse than native 16-bit originals.
"Somehow?" :roll: You'd really have to work at it to make things sound worse. Have you ever done bit conversions yourself? It doesn't sound like it.

24-bit was recommended to me by a pro recording engineer who operates a multi-track recording studio up the road from me. Dave regularly dithers his 24-bit masters down to 16-bit consumer format, including audio archiving and restoration masters. NOBODY who does pro-level recording makes 16-bit masters anymore. Nobody. 16-bit went out with DAT.

You MIGHT experience conversion errors when reducing sampling rates, not bit depth. But I think modern algos have made that worry largely a thing of the past as well.

Incidentally, if you want credible sources of digital tech info, check out the AES, not YouTube or Neil Young.
I don't want to read the manual either, but, then, it isn't my problem, is it?
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