how to improve a track which have seperate channels ?

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Michael REMY
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how to improve a track which have seperate channels ?

Post by Michael REMY »

hi,

i love a track on a CD which have a big problem (the master engineered sound, not the CD physical quality).
I don't know what the sound engineer performed but he may produce a mistake in this track (other tracks on the CD don't hve this problem).

In this track, the left channel offer the voice, and the right one the instrumental music !
so, when you use a headphone to listen to the music, you're disturbed !
Moreover, when there is no voice during the song, you sound to miss something like your headphone is dysfunctionning...or your ear !

how to change that and improve that kind of track ?
here the graph to help....
Image

i'm also tried to contact the author but i don't know the difference job task between :
- the Arranger : Lars Halapi (at Atlantis Sony music)
- the Mixer : Pontus Olsson (at EMI studios)
- the masterer : Peter Dahl (at Cutting Room)
Which person may have decided to separate the channels like that ?

Have a good day
mewtwo-EX
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Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:30 pm

Re: how to improve a track which have seperate channels ?

Post by mewtwo-EX »

That sounds like an application of Effects>Stereo>Channel Mixer>Mono mix. The result will be mono, since you don't have any stereo information to work with. Of the 3 people mentioned, I'd believe the Mixer or Masterer would be the one to talk to. Have you been able to find the track anywhere else? With or without the problem?
Michael REMY
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Re: how to improve a track which have seperate channels ?

Post by Michael REMY »

mewtwo-EX wrote:That sounds like an application of Effects>Stereo>Channel Mixer>Mono mix. The result will be mono, since you don't have any stereo information to work with. Of the 3 people mentioned, I'd believe the Mixer or Masterer would be the one to talk to. Have you been able to find the track anywhere else? With or without the problem?
thank you for your reply.

yes i find other release of the tracl (digital official, single and best of release and all have the same problem).
it is very trange to release such an error on a track to sell !
Even the various video version on the web get the problem !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jtOOs87K7M

So i hope for a remaster one in a further new release of bestof or something like that !
I got a single acoustic release which is fine, but it is not the same orchestral at all.

As i said, it is the only track from the album which got that problem ! very very very strange...
i see there is a LP version, i'm curious about that support....
but no DSD or SACD release...
https://www.discogs.com/Sophie-Zelmani- ... ter/245685

Have a good day
DougDbug
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Re: how to improve a track which have seperate channels ?

Post by DougDbug »

In this track, the left channel offer the voice, and the right one the instrumental music !
Efect -> Stereo -> Channel Mixer allows you to blend the left & right channels in any proportion, all they way down to mono (two identical channels) if you wish. (Or, you can reverse the left & right channels, etc.)

You could also try some more "fun things", like making a copy of the file, reversing the channels, add a few milliseconds of silence to the beginning to make a delay, then mix-in the modified track at a lower level. It's important to lower the volume of the delayed copy to minimize comb filtering and other side-effects that will show-up when played in mono.

Since mixing is done by summation, run the Maximize effect before saving. That will bring down the volume (if necessary) to prevent clipping in the final-file. The same goes for simple channel blending... You might end-up with clipping depending on the settings you use (if you don't Maximize or otherwise check/adjust the levels before saving).
i'm also tried to contact the author but i don't know the difference job task between :
- the Arranger : Lars Halapi (at Atlantis Sony music)
- the Mixer : Pontus Olsson (at EMI studios)
- the masterer : Peter Dahl (at Cutting Room)
Which person may have decided to separate the channels like that ?
The producer is responsible for the overall sound of the music & recording. The mixing engineer is the person who actually did it. And, with a "big commercial release" there may be executives involved.

The one person we can't probably blame is the mastering engineer. He can mix/blend the left & right channels but, "You can't un-bake a cake or un-fry and egg, and you can't un-mix audio". There are some "tricks" you can do with the "center" (such as vocal removal) but you can't un-mix and push the centered vocals to the right or left. Sometimes, the mastering engineer is sent "stems" (sub-mixes) so he has some control over the mix, but usually not.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
...There were some Beatles recordings mixed that way. It was the early days of stereo. The main-original release was in mono and stereo release was sort-of an afterthought and they were "experimenting". They didn't have multitrack recording and they were limited to what they could do, especially without multiple generations of tape overdubbing (which degrades the signal). But that's really not an "excuse". This was rock & roll... Of course early stereo classical recordings were more natural sounding.
Michael REMY
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Re: how to improve a track which have seperate channels ?

Post by Michael REMY »

so i tried this way :
Efect -> Stereo -> Channel Mixer allows you to blend the left & right channels in any proportion, all they way down to mono (two identical channels) if you wish. (Or, you can reverse the left & right channels, etc.)
The result sound very fine, at least it suits me !

The curious thing is the new wav file got the SAME file size than the original ! what a strange thing !

Thank for the information.
mewtwo-EX
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Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:30 pm

Re: how to improve a track which have seperate channels ?

Post by mewtwo-EX »

It's actually not a surprise at all! File size is based on the length of the track and the sample rate. Since you didn't change either of these, file size is not affected. (Wave files are uncompressed. Each sample is a number of fixed size. Compressed files, such as MP3s, use various algorithms to make the file smaller. The file size of these could increase or decrease depending on complexity and other factors.)
DougDbug
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Re: how to improve a track which have seperate channels ?

Post by DougDbug »

The curious thing is the new wav file got the SAME file size than the original ! what a strange thing !
Yeah... CDs are 16-bits, 44.1kHz, 2-channels. If you know there are 8 bits in a byte, and if you know 44.1 kHz means 44,100 samples per second, you can make an easy calculation:
File size in bytes = (16/8) bytes x 44,100 x 2 channels x Playing time in seconds.

If you mix the left & right channels equally you have the option of saving-as mono (1 channel) and that WILL cut file size in half. That's assume a WAV file or other similar uncompressed format. (A true-mono file will play out of both speakers.)

Audio CDs are always 2-channels so if you make a CD, the mono will be duplicated in both channels and you save any disc space and you can't put more music on a CD by making it "mono".

The file size of an MP3 (or other compressed formats) is determined by it's bit rate. Bit rate in kbps is kilobits per second so you can simply divide by 8 to get file size in kilobytes per second.

When you make an MP3 you can force a particular bitrate or with LAME VBR mode you can choose a "quality" setting and LAME will choose the required moment-by-moment bitrate needed to achieve the chosen quality. And with the Joint Stereo default, LAME is also "smart" about figuring out what's common in both channels and what's different so a stereo MP3 file isn't necessarily bigger than a mono file.

It's possible to calculate the bitrate of a WAV file, but we usually just "talk about" the bit depth and sample rate. For shorthand you'll sometimes see "16/44".1 or "24/96". A "CD quality" WAV file is 1411kbps, or around five times the bitrate (and 5 times the file size) as a "good quality" MP3.
DougA
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Re: how to improve a track which have seperate channels ?

Post by DougA »

I don't know what the sound engineer performed but he may produce a mistake in this track (other tracks on the CD don't hve this problem).

In this track, the left channel offer the voice, and the right one the instrumental music !
This is an old post, but the OP talks about it being a mistake when actually what you have here is an "instrumental trac", not a mistake.
this track is for sing along or performance use. better known as a background trac, it's really two mono tracks, the voice is a "demo"
Mix both channels into a mono signal (typical for a house PA sound) and you'll have a demo.
Play just the right channel into a house PA system, mix in a live singer and you have a "performance", of course you can also mix in the voice track for sing along. It's a combo background trac and demo.
I expect there should be indication of this on the jacket.
Doug
Michael REMY
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Re: how to improve a track which have seperate channels ?

Post by Michael REMY »

hi,

excuse me Doug, but what is "the OP" ?

i don't know that track was a demo (not mentioned on the back of the album).
Since i got another version of the song on a single CD, different instrumentation..
Then i did what i'd been adviced to : mix the 2 track to get a new false stereo-one. it pleases me so.

Waiting for a anniversary release of the album to get the original song version :roll: !
DougA
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Re: how to improve a track which have seperate channels ?

Post by DougA »

excuse me Doug, but what is "the OP" ?
Sorry Michael, just shorthand for "original post" ... your opening post, instead of adding to the ongoing thread.
The thread was responding to your request of "what can I do" ... I'm just trying to explain it wasn't a goof, there's a purpose for it.
i don't know that track was a demo (not mentioned on the back of the album).
Since i got another version of the song on a single CD, different instrumentation..
Then i did what i'd been adviced to : mix the 2 track to get a new false stereo-one. it pleases me so.
No, I wouldn't call that a "demo" track, it's an "instrumental" track (which also contains a demo)
It's not intended for "listening", but rather for use in a (normally) live presentation.
It's what everybody that's singing to music is doing, (unless they have a live musical accompanist)

I am surprised you don't have something on the jacket "promoting" an extra feature, (an instrumental trac)

Are you sure that same song isn't also on that CD "correctly" ? - I would expect it to be

In any case, you just want to listen to it, the advice given is good, just merge the track to mono.
Since i got another version of the song on a single CD, different instrumentation..
Is this just a single song on the CD ? if so, that REALLY says "instrumentation trac" ... meant for performance use.
Doug
Michael REMY
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Re: how to improve a track which have seperate channels ?

Post by Michael REMY »

ok!
so OP does not mean Olsson Pontus (the original mixer at EMI studios) :mrgreen:
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